2 00:00:42,438 --> 00:00:43,300 You're on.
John, sorry to keep you waiting. Hello?
She always knew I'd kill her. She'd say:
"One of these days, you're gonna shoot me.
And you know what? You're gonna miss."
Her last words were: "You'll never amount to anything."
She was wrong.
I'm a murderer. I killed my own mother.
That's something, isn't it? ln case you just tuned in, that was Raymond Linette, out on parole after doing 4 years for matricide. That's murdering your mother.
And matricide is what we're talking about tonight.
Our guests are Dr. Leo Richmond, psychiatrist and author of "The Mother-Killers: Boys Who Kill Their Mothers."
Dr. Richmond is here to help us find out what makes them do it.
Mr. George Emeric, grandfather of the paroled killer, and of course Raymond himself.
Raymond, you're able to talk about what made you do what you did.
I've talked about it every day for 4 years. It's part of therapy at Sedonia. - There's been an outcry against such prisons.
That let criminals out too soon? The recidivism rate is almost 60% .
I'm only out because of my grandpa.
Mr. Emeric, you're Ray's maternal grandfather?
Yes. - Meaning: he murdered your daughter. - Yes.
Yet you've made parole possible by taking him into your home, where your daughter grew up.
The same room.
Could you tell us what that feels like to you?
You must've loved your daughter.
She was a world-class bitch who didn't deserve a boy like Raymond.
Marilyn, you're on. I'd like to ask Dr. Richmond:
Don't girls ever kill their mothers? The same dynamics don't apply.
You mean they never ... Not as often as boys.
Maybe girls are too smart to get caught.
I don't have the statistics on female matricide.
Boys happen to be my sphere of expertise.
So how did this become your sphere?
My first involvement with a mother-killer was 30 years ago.
A man turned himself into his mother, out of guilt for having murdered her.
Turned himself into her? - Dressed in her clothes, spoke in her voice, killed as her, all to create the illusion that she was still alive, that he had not murdered her.
Matricide is probably the most unbearable crime of all, and most unbearable for the son who commits it.
Raymond Linette has to be home by 10, a condition of his parole.
Raymond, Mr. Emeric, I want to thank you for joining us.
Dr. Raymond, you will stay, won't you? Glad to.
Our next caller is from ...
No name either, I guess?
We have to call you something.
You can call me ... Ed.
Go ahead, Ed.
I listen to your program every night. It's one of the pleasures of parole.
Were you in Sedonia too? Someplace like that.
But I never dreamed you'd do a show so personally relevant.
You have a question for Dr. Richmond? He sure likes hearing himself talk.
Where are you calling from?
I called because the focus of your show tonight is what makes boys kill their mothers.
But so far, your guests haven't given us any insight into that.
I thought maybe I could help. I'm a member of the doctor's ...
What did he call it? "Sphere."
Are you saying you killed your mother, Ed?
Oh, I've killed before.
And now I have to do it again.
How old were you when you killed your mother, Ed?
I killed some other women too.
The first one just wanted to have sex with me.
Wanted to have sex with you? Is that grounds for murder?
ln my mother's eyes it was.
No thank you.
It's not like I have cooties. That's not what I meant.
You look glad to see me.
Anyone would be. Come on, let's go watch the fireworks show in the park!
I can't leave the office.
You know what fascinates me about you? The way you keep to yourself.
I bet you can keep your mouth shut about things. - What things?
Do fireworks get you hot?
Inordinately ... I love sexy words!
I never heard a girl talk like you before.
I guess we can see the show from here.
Best place would be from up there. That room up there.
That's my mother's room.
She's in bed.
Asleep? Probably tossing and turning.
Hasn't been herself lately.
Will you show me your room?
My mother'd love to catch me sneaking a girl into my room!
Then we'd better go now, while she's still tossing and turning.
You want to, don't you?
Let's go in the office.
Where? On the floor? What kind of a girl do you think am l?
There's a parlor in the back. Hey, boy!
Toilet's clogged up! I'll be right there.
Wait in the parlor.
Why are you here?
What in the hell are you doing? Just scaring you. Scaredy-cat!
Why my mother's room? I thought it was yours.
Shh! We'll wake up your mother.
Oh, it's stifling in here!
I'm not embarrassing you, am I?
What? I thought I heard ...
You'd like to touch them ...
Put them down!
Is it a good smell?
Did you hear that? It's the fireworks.
I'd better go check. Make sure she's OK. - Your mother?
Will you just stay here? Since you said "please."
Get that whore out of my house!
She's not a whore.
I said get rid of her! Or do I have to do it myself?
No, Mother. I'll get rid of her.
Kill her! Kill her?
I can't. No! No, I can't!
Alright, then I'll do it for you.
Come here, Norman. Put your ear next to Mommy's lips.
Come close to me.
We can't have girls in this house. Listen to me:
You're my boy, and I want you to stay my boy.
You're my best friend.
A boy and his mother should be close.
Norman, I know you're alone in there.
Mother! Oh God, Mother!
Was this the first time you had a conversation with a corpse?
Actually, we started conversing soon after I killed her.
But I couldn't make her voice sound as sweet as it was.
She was dead, and in my mind, she grew old.
Tell me, Ed. Where were you living when you became a mother-killer?
What's geography got to do with it? Why won't you answer me?
Maybe it's not important.
Ed, we're anxious to shed some light on this most unbearable subj...
You okay? Yeah, I just cut myself.
Bad? No. Anything wrong?
Guess what I didn't pick up today? The cake.
I'm sorry. Can you do it?
I can bake one easier. You couldn't say what I want on it.
I'm not so good at icing.
So? Will you? Bakery'll be closed by now.
Nope. It's an all-night market.
Dinner'll be ruined if I leave it.
Anyway, isn't it bad luck for a guy to pick up his own birthday cake?
I'll see if they can deliver it. I can keep it cold downstairs.
Are you upset? About what?
What we spoke about before.
The good news. lf it's so good, why would I be upset?
It'll work out, Norman. You'll see.
Something's burning. See you soon.
... and the author of the book, "The Mother-Killers." ln our last hour, we had a caller who said he murdered his own mother.
We're hoping to hear from him again.
Ed, if you're listening, we'd very much like to hear from you, because, well, you've been there.
It's "Talk of the Town" ...
KTK AM. KTK, can I help you?
Oh, Ed! Hold on a second.
The pulse of Central California!
Great! Welcome back, Ed.
Thanks. - Want to tell us about your mother? How she ... drove you to become what you became?
No, it wasn't her fault.
She was the product of her time, the age of sexual repression.
You make her sound positively Victorian.
Did all this happen in this century? You were saying, Ed ...
That my mother wasn't totally bad. I guess nobody's mother is. lf your caller is so anxious to give us some insight into what makes boys kill their mothers ... Right. Ed ...
What we need to know is, what she did to you.
Did she smother you in some way, the way some of us mothers do?
She just made me feel unsure.
I never knew what to expect.
She'd be sweet one moment, and then suddenly turn ... mean.
She was that way with my father too. Of course, with him, she was also ...
You know, frigid.
You sound very sympathetic, Ed. You must've loved her a lot.
A boy's best friend is his mother.
What about your father?
He died when I was six.
He was stung to death by bees.
They stung his eyes, his nostrils, even the insides of his mouth.
I was worried about my mother, seeing him lying in that box.
He looked so horrible, they had to cover his face with a silk handkerchief.
I felt awful sad, mainly because of how my mother looked.
How she looked always decided how I felt at any given moment.
And she looked so sorrowful, all in black.
I was too shocked to laugh.
I mean, I was real ticklish, but this time ...
I couldn't help it, I giggled out loud.
Show some respect for the dead!
As if it were my fault!
Connie called and asked me to say they'll bring her the cake.
She said your line's been busy. Thank you, Mrs. Lane.
I didn't realize it was your birthday, Norman.
I might have something for you.
That's alright. Please, don't bother. I don't mind being bothered.
Thank you, Mrs. Lane.
Let's get back to "Talk of the Town" with Fran Ambrose.
Go ahead, caller. - It sounds like I shouldn't tickle my kid, or he'll grow up and kill me. Maybe we should stop here.
Don't let this guy go!
No, Ed, don't! How about telling me some good things about your mother?
She had the most beautiful hair.
She usually wore it all tight and locked up like a schoolmarm.
But sometimes, when we were alone ...
Hair, hundreds of light-years long.
ln the cosmic scheme of things, I know little boys are small.
But some days they can be ...
Some days, little boys can be ... giants.
That's beautiful ... poetry.
This is Fran Ambrose, on KTK, "Talk of the Town."
Tonight we're talking with a caller who says he killed his mother.
Plus her boyfriend!
Did he abuse you too?
But she didn't need him.
He didn't make her life any better than it was when all she had was ... me.
I was the man of the house. She used to call me that.
I practically ran the motel single-handedly by the time I was 15.
She depended on me. Especially when she was scared.
She was scared to death of thunder and lightning.
Norman, come over here!
No, not with those wet clothes! Take them off!
Now hold me!
That night, I realized suddenly that I was ... I guess you could say I had gotten a little too big for my britches.
What's the matter with you?
What's wrong with you? You sick?
It's a wonder you don't have 101 exotic diseases, living in this mess!
Mother, go back to bed. You'll catch a cold.
A lot you'd care! Sometimes I think you loathe me.
I could never loathe you. Why do you say that?
Always running from me. Just when I need you most.
On a night like ...
What is this?
You dirty little pig! Take that right out to the garbage!
No! Go as you are!
Maybe the rain'll wash some of the dirt out of your system.
Pig! Dirty pig! Dirty whoremongering pig!
Some day, I'm going to wish I'd been firmer with you.
I'd like to ask Ed a question or two.
That all right with you, Ed? Maybe.
Your mother's abuse ...
You didn't mind it, so long as it was just the two of you. Right?
Bad as it was, it was okay, perhaps even enjoyable, until she brought home a boyfriend?
Could it be there was a little jealousy there, Ed? lf the doctor's trying to turn this into some kind of incest tragedy, tell him to forget it, Fran. Forget it, Doc. lf it was that kind of thing, would I have killed those other women?
How many did you kill?
Fran? I'm here.
Lots of authorities think my "problem" is a matter of genetics.
You mean, how parents treat you doesn't influence what you become?
But you know better, don't you?
One day I got home from school early. I saw my mother going into a cabin.
I went in, and I ... peeped at her through a hole that my father had made.
You peeped into the cabin and watched your mother doing what?
Losing her mind.
Did she ever catch you spying?
God knows what she would've done to me!
Her cruelty could come straight from the heart.
The summer before I killed her was the hottest summer in history.
My mother hated the heat. It made her feel ... like a dog.
I made it with a few drops of vanilla, just the way you like it.
I'm dying from this heat. You'll wish you'd been nice to me.
Blot me with some orange-flower water.
What should I use? Your fingers.
Unless my skin disgusts you.
Does it? No. Of course not. Don't be silly.
Then don't you be silly. Blot me!
Do my legs first.
Start at the ankles. Find the pulse.
Careless child! Spilling Mommy's orange-flower water!
Wicked boy! I'll buy you another bottle, honest!
Get off me!
You'll forget once and for all about that filthy thing of yours!
You'll forget that you even have one. Do you understand me, boy?
There! That should help you forget. See? Look at yourself, boy!
Ha! Girl! Yes, girl!
Mama's little girl! No I'm not!
No, Mother, please!
Please, Mother, don't leave me here!
Here, you'll need this. You'll stay locked in there until you accept that you're a girl.
You'll probably have to go wee-wee. Squat over this.
That's all that thing is good for, making wee-wee. Is that clear?
Answer me! Is that clear, Norma?
Don't leave me!
Please dear God, don't let her leave me here.
Mother! Please! Mother!
Please God, don't let her leave me here! Please! Mother!
Ed, are you there?
Ed, are you all right?
I said yes. We didn't hear it.
We can't hear nods.
I'll be right back.
Tomorrow on the show: "Right to life, or wrong."
Fran talks abortion with Archbishop Anthony Taylor, on KTK, "Talk of the Town."
Mike, listen to this! Tell him what you just told me.
This guy "Ed" ... I've been putting 2 and 2 together: the mother, the boyfriend, the motel, the other killings ...
I'm convinced it's Norman Bates. The guy at the top of the show, who became his mother. Gimme a break! - The point is ...
Any threat that Norman Bates makes must be taken very seriously.
He said: "Now I have to kill again." We need to find out who.
How do you plan to do that? I don't know. My own style.
Meaning she'll ask him flat out. lf you've been listening, you know he doesn't like that.
Let me go to work on him. I can reach him.
I examined him after he killed that girl in the shower.
Shouldn't I call the police? He hasn't done anything yet.
We don't even know if it's him. What if it is?
It could be important to know where he is. - Fairvale, California.
Call someone there. Not the police. -The newspaper? - Good idea.
Find out if he's still at the motel. Don't get anybody's ass in an uproar. Let's keep this our problem for now.
We're back. This is Fran Ambrose on KTK, "Talk of the Town."
Tell me, Ed: when your mother castrated you like that ...
Symbolically. You must've felt like killing her.
I never felt like killing her. Or anybody else.
But you did. And other women too. And now you want to do it again.
That jerk's going to make him hang up!
Maybe I oughta give another mother-killer a chance to call up and talk to you.
Ed, what was it: 3, 4 years later that you killed her?
Not that long. About a year.
What's the matter? What'd I do? Nothing! Nothing!
Then why are you hitting me? Who else can I hit?
It won't be built by the highway, where the world could see us.
It'll be miles away! Nobody'll even know we're here.
They'll put us out of business.
What am I going to do? How will we live? You ...
You're just like my father! Never a drop of sympathy!
I'm sorry. Sorry for what? What good are you, if you can't show sympathy? How? - No, you just cause trouble.
Because of you, my bladder's damaged. That's why I can't hold my water.
Did you know that? Yes.
I was fine until I gave birth to you. You caused a lot of damage!
I should've gotten rid of you.
Nothing you've done merits all I've had to go through with you.
I should've killed you in my womb. You sure as hell tried to kill me.
She sounds horrible.
It wasn't always like that. You didn't know her.
She was a remarkable woman. So remarkable that you murdered her.
Ed, can you hold on? We've got to take a break.
This is Fran Ambrose on KTK, "Talk of the Town."
We'll be right back.
No disrespect, but Ed has a lot of hostility against you.
Norman. That's why he's ignoring you.
Maybe you're better trained for this.
I'm just a talk show host, but I know people.
And whatever Bates is, he's people. Two people.
One talks like a poet, the other stabs women.
Bates left town years ago, after the motel murders.
The place is a wreck.
Did you think to ask where Norman did time?
Fran said, this is "our problem." Doc, why don't you stay out of this?
Are you asking me to leave? No. Ellen will make you coffee, and I ... - You want to question a psychopath without professional help?
Maybe he's had enough professional help!
Do you want to be responsible for what he does after he hangs up?
I suggest you trace that call, then contact the authorities.
We can't trace calls. And besides, I don't think I like your attitude!
I won't be a party to this! Just a minute! - My way or yours!
Thanks for letting us plug your book. I can't believe it!
You'd let human beings get killed for ratings?
Ratings have nothing to do with it! They do to me.
Maybe we can help him. I wanna hear his story, and so do they.
Try it your way, and fail! That murder will be on your head.
Fran Ambrose wants to talk to you! Call the KTK talkline, 1-800-555-TALK.
Ed? I didn't lose you, did I?
Ed? - I wouldn't hang up like that. I think of you as a friend.
I hope you mean that. It's late. My wife'll be home soon.
I'm cooking tonight. It's my birthday.
Where did you meet her? At the institution. - How romantic!
She was a patient too? No. She works there.
She's a psychologist. One of the best.
The moment I met her, I said: "You'll bring peace to many souls."
I wasn't just coming on to her. She likes me for that.
Was it love at first sight?
It was for her. It took me a few more sights.
How quick did you get married? Not very quick. I was hesitant ...
So you've been living happily ever after in your little home?
It's her house. From a previous marriage.
What's with Dr. Richmond? Haven't heard from him lately.
He had to catch a plane. Book promotion tours are brutal.
Do you both live near the institution?
Shouldn't we be getting back to the focus of your show?
Yeah. Well, how did you ...
kill you mother?
I'm wondering, and I'm sure our listeners are too:
What was the last straw? Of all the things your mother did, what really drove you to murder?
It began the night she brought that man home for the first time.
Good morning, good morning!
This is one morning you won't spoil!
Eat your breakfast and be off. You don't want to be late.
You saw us, didn't you?
What do you mean?
You were at the window. You saw me and Chet, didn't you?
Chet? Chet Rudolph.
We're getting married, as soon as he gets his divorce.
Where did you find him? Since when do you go to cheap bars?
He does happen to be a bartender.
Used to be, rather. He'll start working here, at our motel. He's also going to live here, in my house.
So you'd better get used to it.
Good morning, darling.
You two say hello to each other.
Hi there, Normie! You take my father's robe off!
You see, Norman ...
You only want to be naked around a lady when you're having sex.
Otherwise, it just ain't respectful.
You weren't about to give that man a chance.
He didn't deserve her.
Good. Nice, soft grass. Won't hurt as much when you deck me.
Aw, come on, Norman!
I'm sorry. Sometimes, I just don't know my own strength.
Now come on and get me back.
Come on. Get even!
What's the matter, Norman? Come on!
You're not a girl, are you?
Your mama swore to me you was a boy.
Not too badly hung either.
That's what she said! Shut up!
Kid's got potential.
Ed, are you there?
You still with us, Ed?
This is the Fran Ambrose Show on KTK AM 490.
We'll be right back. KTK reports possible thunder ...
I called the police in Fairvale. And?
They were helpful, until I asked where Bates got sent.
"Sorry, privileged information." I know the type.
Should I call the newspaper again? Maybe they can help.
It's your friend, Ed!
Welcome back, Ed. Thanks for staying with us.
Sure. - Look, about you having to kill again ...
Is your mother making you do it? She has nothing to do with it.
Not directly. But she's always had a strong influence on my behavior.
After all, I have her seed in me.
After the last murder four years ago, murders, plural, I wanted to be executed, or locked away for life, so I'd never hurt anyone again.
I wanted to protect the world from this bad seed known as "Norman Bates." lnstead, they sent me to a place a lot like Sedonia ...
The same rough therapy, the same phased re-entry into society.
What I need to know is: Why ruin this great new life of yours?
I don't know who you intend to kill, but whoever it is, is it worth losing everything?
Because that's what'll happen when you get caught. Unless you let me help you.
Help me not to get caught? Don't get flippant about this!
You don't want to flush your new life down the toilet.
I think you want me to stop you.
You're wrong, and I can prove it by hanging up.
Let's give you a break, Ed. Take another call.
Andrew, first-time caller from Stockton.
This girl he killed, 'cause she wanted to have sex ...
Discussing past victims might not be productive. - Victims?
The second one was an older woman.
Didn't you do a show recently on young men and older women?
I don't remember how I wound up in her car at 2 in the morning.
Baby, your tongue is like an elephant's memory!
No, wait ...
Let me catch my breath, okay?
Oh God! - What? I forgot ...
I have to give my mother her 2 o'clock medication.
I'll be right back.
Then I'll take you someplace real private.
You mean it?
Why did you bring her here? I didn't.
Don't lie to me! I know about your cheap, erotic urges.
I wouldn't lie to you. - You would! All men lie to their mothers about their cheap desires. You're no different!
Your plan to kill someone ... Are you going to do it again?
Is your mother making you do it?
Mother's not here anymore. She's dead.
Are you angry about that? Not really. Talking with you has helped a lot. - You mean you don't feel as much like killing as before?
I'm not feeling the emptiness as bad.
You've been feeling it from day 1.
It didn't start until I saw her in her coffin.
It was OK when she was in the morgue.
But when they brought her home in that thing, I knew a pain that I can only call "soul cancer."
I had to have her back, any way I could.
The undertaker put a wig on her, because of what the strychnine did.
But I had to have her, even without her crowning glory.
I had this hobby: taxidermy. A passion, really.
I'd made so many little animals look like they came back to life, why couldn't I do it for her?
Matricide is probably the most unbearable crime of all, most unbearable to the son who commits it.
Norman, we go off the air at 10 o'clock.
Think how your wife's gonna feel when the police call her to the hospital, or to the morgue. This time your victim may strike back.
You may wind up dead. What a loss that'll be for her!
She believes in you, Norman.
She must! She fell in love with you at the mental institution, and now you're going to dash her faith to pieces? I don't care. She deserves to die.
You're gonna ... kill your wife?
Call that newspaper. Tell 'em it's a matter of life and death!
Norman, why? You said she deserved to die. How?
What did she do that she should pay with her life?
She let herself get pregnant!
Aha. I thought I'd convinced her what a mistake it'd be to have kids. Before we got married, I said:
"No kids, Connie. I've killed damn near a dozen human beings.
I may be well now, but I'll never be cured.
I'm still who I always was. My genes are the ones I got from my mother.
I'm still her flesh and blood!
The Bates line ends with me." And finally, she said okay.
Maybe she got pregnant by accident? When she called, she'd just heard from the doctor. She didn't tell me she went off the pill, because she didn't want to stop making love.
We called it "making love."
But it wasn't supposed to bring forth another monster.
So she planned this on her own, after you said this to her?
She just doesn't believe than my problem can be genetic.
Scientists have proven that the cause for my kind of insanity is genetic. But she just doesn't buy it.
What does she expect you to do? She knows your history.
She says she has faith in me.
Norman, we've only a little time left. lf we haven't talked this out, will you stay on the line? We can talk on the phone just as easy.
I don't think you wanna kill your wife.
That's why you called in. Thank God you did, it's not too late.
It is too late. My mind's made up. But maybe Connie's isn't.
She can end this pregnancy. She'd never do that.
There's your God!
Your mother's not here anymore. Remember? She can't tell you what to do now. - That's right. This time it'll be with my own hands.
Just like the first time.
Go down and see what's keeping that boy. I'm so thirsty!
We can't have that now, can we?
Wow! Room service has arrived!
Not a word about my new kimono? It's lurid.
Where does that boy get his ways? Not from me.
Turn on the radio, will you?
What is it?
You dirty little bastard!
You're dead! You hear me? Dead!
Kill him! Kill the little bastard!
Norman, will you stay on the line?
Will you stay on the line?
Please, once you hang up ... That's the end of the Ambrose Show.
What did you say? I said, the show's over.
San Joaquin Hospital ...
It's for you.
Take a message. It's your husband.
Will you be coming home soon? I was just leaving. Want anything?
Don't come home. Meet me at my mother's house.
Where? - You heard me. Why? - It's my birthday, isn't it?
Yes, but ... that sounds a bit morbid. I'm hanging up and driving there.
I'm expecting you, Connie. Norman, wait!
Just me and my trusty umbrella.
Norman, what are we doing here?
I tricked you, I had to. I hated it, but I didn't know any other way.
I love you so much.
I want us to have a baby so much.
Oh, Norman, don't you see?
We'll love our baby.
Our love will make it grow strong and healthy.
But what if I can't love it?
Why couldn't you? You can love. You do!
You love me.
You don't trust me.
All that faith and no potatoes.
Look at yourself!
You're not that person now, Norman.
You're not a killer, Norman.
Our baby won't be a monster.
Don't I count? I've never taken anyone's life.
I love you. Our baby will love you. Give us a chance!
No more blood, Norman!
Please, no more blood!
Wait in the car.
I'm gonna get rid of the past. For good. - How?
I should've killed you in my womb!
What's the matter? You're not a girl, are you?
I'm not embarrassing you, am I?
Show some respect for the dead!
Help! Somebody please help!
Let me out of here! Norman! Do you hear me, boy?
Let me out!